Tuesday, March 6, 2012

The Virginia Statute of Religious Freedom

Separation of Church and State is a concept that Citizens and Christians can happily accept. This idea is both taught to us by our founding fathers, and by the Bible. Laws, Statutes, and Amendments to our Constitution have been passed to secure the religious rights of every citizen of this great country. Special interests, however, have manipulated history and the Bible to gain power, votes, and influence in an effort to pass laws against the natural interests of middle to lower class Americans. It important for every citizen of this nation to understand the fundamental teachings of our founding fathers, as well as understand their doctrine's teaching of civil interaction as an agent of God.

Thomas Jefferson was the writer of the Declaration of Independence, the Third President of the United States, and the writer of the Virginia Statute of Religious Freedom. The Virginia Statute of Religious Freedom provides language which both defines Separation of Church and State, and grants total protection of our freedom to practice religion. Without this document, we wouldn't have Freedom of Religion in the sense that we do today.

In the Declaration of Independence, Jefferson argued that "the laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle [citizens]" to certain inalienable rights. The Statute of Religious Freedom begins by stating that one of these natural rights is freedom of thought. The God which Thomas Jefferson attributes these inalienable rights is the natural God that is undeniably at work in the Universe. Without acknowledgement of this God, no one could secure the natural rights of man. The first stanza of the Virginia Statute of Religious Freedom is as follows:

I. Whereas Almighty God hath created the mind free; that all attempts to influence it by temporal punishment or burthens, or by civil incapacitations, tend only to beget habits of hypocrisy and meanness, and are a departure from the plan of the Holy author of our religion, who being Lord both of body and mind, yet chose not to propagate it by coercion on either, as was his Almighty power to do.

Thomas Jefferson explains that God has gifted man with a free mind, and as such it is not appropriate for any person or government to curtail this freedom. By recognizing that each person is gifted a free mind from God, each person is entitled to the right of free thought.


The second stanza of the Virginia Statute of Religious Freedom is that actual act itself, and clearly defines what Religious Freedom means, and the necessity of the Separation of Church and State.


II. Be it enacted by the General Assembly, that no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinion in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities.


The act protects citizens from being forced to support, or attend any religious observance. Furthermore, it is clearly stated that no citizen shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, or to be made to suffer on account of his or her religious opinions. In short, this means that in matter of Religious opinion, such as when does life begin, or what defines marriage, one's rights cannot be limited by the doctrine of any religion. Every citizen is allowed to maintain their own opinion regarding religion, and that in no way shall their opinion diminish or affect their rights.


Finally, the last stanza of the Virginia Statute of Religious Freedom states that the act is describing a natural, and inalienable right of the people. It warns that to circumvent the language of the act with future legislation is to be done at the assembly's own peril, as no government or person can ever revoke this natural, and inalienable right.


III. And though we well know that this assembly elected by the people, for the ordinary purposes of legislation only, have no power to restrain the act of succeeding assemblies, constituted with powers equal to our own, and that therefore to declare this act to be irrevocable would be of no effect in law; yet we are free to declare, that the rights hereby asserted are of the natural rights of mankind, and that if any act shall be hereafter passed to repeal the present, or to narrow its operation, such as would be an infringement of the natural right.


The Virginia Statute of Religious Freedom was not some act that Thomas Jefferson took lightly. To him, this was a product based on a lifetime of work. In fact, it was so important to Thomas Jefferson that he requested that he be credited for the act on his tombstone. As such, his tombstone reads as follows:


"Here was buried Thomas Jefferson, Author of the Declaration of American Independence, of the Statute of Virginia for Religious Freedom and Father of the University of Virginia"






Thomas Jefferson's view of Religious Freedom is complete, well described, and completely correct. To violate this natural right of man is an affront of our God, the one who grants all natural rights. If God saw fit to force individuals to observe the law of the Bible, we would indeed not have the will to disobey. However, God has gifted us with the natural, and inalienable right to a free mind. 

27 comments:

  1. I think this is confusing free will that God has given all men with a "right" that you say God has given us that does not exist. God has never given man the "right" to disregard His instruction. We are called to obey His law...you are right to say that God does not force us to do so...ie: free will, but that does not discount the fact that He has commanded us to obey. God's word is clear that we "shall not murder" that includes life in the womb! Whether you believe that life begins at conception or at birth is of no consequence. Same sex marriage is a violation of not only Gods commands that marriage should be between "one man and one woman" but also violates His creative order: It is un-natural... husband and wife have been commanded to "be fruitful and multiply"...how is that happening in a same sex marriage? Saying that an early church father said that God gives us free will and free thought so we should be able to do whatever we think and feel, (if that is what you are saying), is misguided and not logical. For instance, if I think and feel it's ok to steal all your stuff, should I have the freedom to do so? Dragging God and His will into what seems to be liberal thought and theology and saying that anyone who thinks differently and try's to follow His word over and above man's "right" have committed an "affront" to God is pretty rough. What America needs is less "rights" and more honor and observance of God's Word. The only "right" God has given us in the scripture is the "right" to be called the children of the Most High God. Trust me...I am not very political and in no way am I trying to debate political things but some things are clear in God's word and when we as a nation go away from His word in the name of religious freedom or freedom of thought...then all hope is lost. This nation was founded on God and His Word and a light unto our path. The path is getting dark because we have stopped using the light!

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  2. Tim! I'm so glad to hear from you. Thank you so much for taking the time to reply. I do not disagree with anything you wrote. I personally believe that life begins at conception - I also believe it to be sexually immoral to be homosexual. But these are my beliefs, which are based off religious doctrine that not everybody subscribes to.

    You are correct that it is still sin even if you do not believe in God as proclaimed by the Bible. God will hold everyone accountable for their sins. The question that I am attempting to address with this blog is, "Should the Government be the arbiter of Christian Moral Standards."

    The answer to that question, from my understanding of Biblical and Civic teaching, is that the Government should not be the Arbiter of these things. You and I both know that it is impossible to have the government enforce all Laws as taught to us by the Bible. This is because each and every single one of us would be found guilty. All of us have violated the laws taught to us in Bible - in fact we break them daily. Even the most wise, and spiritually involved of us fall daily to temptation. That is why we have a Savior in Jesus Christ.

    But this idea of using Government to enforce Biblical teachings is actually making a human sinner the judge of spiritual sin. God taught us not to judge, as judgement is God's and God's alone. We are not fit to judge, and as such we should not ask the Government, an institution led by people of many faiths.

    I have a lot more to say about what you wrote, but I don't have much time to reply at the moment. I'll be sure to reply in full when I get the opportunity.

    Again, thank you so much for your reply. I am so happy to hear from you!

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    1. You don't disagree with anything he wrote. Tim! You have got to be kidding! Let's recap:

      "Gods commands that marriage should be between "one man and one woman"..."

      Really, where is this commandment. There are plenty of examples of plural marriages in the bible.

      "For instance, if I think and feel it's ok to steal all your stuff, should I have the freedom to do so?"

      This is a red herring. We don't get laws to not steal from God? There are plenty of "Godless" cultures that outlawed theft and murder.

      "What America needs is less "rights"..."

      Really. Now we get to the heart of that matter. Right, we should give up our right of freedom of speech and freedom of religion and fall right in line with the Evangelicals. Not a chance! You'll have to take them from me!

      "I am not very political and in no way am I trying to debate political things"

      Nonsense, you jumped right into the political aspects of the discussion right away. You want to use your "religious principals" to effect political power on others. Good grief, you couldn't be more transparent.

      "This nation was founded on God and His Word..."

      Nonsense. If this were true we wouldn't have built the country on the backs of slaves on land ripped off from the native americans and had to fight a civil war to free the slaves and needed a woman's suffrage movement or a civil rights movement etc...

      I'm very proud of what my country has become and all of the struggles we endured to get the freedoms we enjoy today. There is no way I would ever give up those rights for such a theocracy that you seem to be calling for.

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    2. I'm trying my best not to talk out of two sides of my mouth - so I'll be brief. Tim Dorn is a very good friend of mine, and I understand where his perspective is coming from. When I said that I agree with everything that he said, I may have been forgiving certain oversights.

      But please understand, there are those who are intentionally misleading the flock of God. Many of the things he said is derived from these lies. I know Tim's heart, he is a great person and an amazing pastor. However, he like many other Christians, have fallen for the wolves in sheep's clothing.

      In an attempt to discuss with him as a brother in Christ these issues, I wasn't going to condemn his opinions. I pointed him towards the source of the dis-information. I hope that he investigates David Barton for the misleading information he has introduced to the public discussion regarding God, and Politics.

      Our nation is nowhere near pure enough to associate with God on the level of which mainstream Christianity would accept. Those who understand history and the Bible understand this. I agree, America does not need less rights. Our country has gone a long way - and I am seeing to it that our country continues to progress; but first and foremost, we must be patient with our Christian brothers and sisters and ensure that they are not led astray.

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  3. Tim,

    Can I call you Tim...I like that name...I wonder why? Anyways...haha...I am glad to hear that you agree on those crucial issues...especially knowing your heart for politics. However, I don't think we can completely separate our beliefs from governing in any capacity. As we know from scripture no authority is given unless the Lord permits it. This nation was founded by men that believed in God, feared God, and desired for the Gospel to effect everything including government and education. The New England Primer was used to teach children how to read and write while unfolding the gospel story. Separation of church is state was for the primary reason of preventing abuse...ie: the government telling us how, when, and where, and what we could worship.
    1) The separation, as we understand it today, didn't even come up until about 1820 or 1830 in a letter from Thomas Jefferson.
    2) The original intent was mainly to prevent the government from controlling (imposing) religion, not to keep the church from influencing government.
    3) The proof that this is so is that most of the Founders violated what we now considered "the separation between church & state" on a practically weekly basis. They were always referring to God and the Bible, and putting their Christian convictions into practice.
    4) The Constitution/Bill of Rights technically only limits "Congress" from imposing a federal established religion, and it left the states free to impose their own established state religions (and many early states had Christianity written into their own Constitutions).

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  4. As far as applying Christianity to the federal government, I don't know if very many Christians suggest a theocracy. Churches have a bad record of running governments, because they become worldly authorities with the power of "the Bible" behind them (even when they don't follow "the Bible").
    More likely to be practical AND Biblical is something more like what we had when the Founders ran things. You're a Christian, and you look to the Bible for guidance in making and implementing laws.

    We've gotten a LONG ways from this now, and it would be hard to get back there without some serious reform. Even Christians in government today don't act like Christians for the most part, and turn to worldly rules (i.e. using Man's Law rather than God's Law) to guide how they rule on a daily basis, mostly only bringing God or the Bible out in speeches and at election time.

    The current interpretation of "separation of church & state" has to be broken down before any positive progress can be made. That probably won't happen unless Christians really make their presence known in politics, instead of expecting nominally Christian representatives to carry our water for us.

    Apathy and "partyism" is a bad habit the Body of Christ has gotten into. Let's not be afraid to tell our parties where they should go, what they should do, and if they don't do what we want, we've got to have the will to leave them and not support them.

    And as far as not judging...if you are refering to Matthew 7 were it say's "judge not lest you be judged" that scripture in it's context as well as using the context of all of scripture is not saying "don't ever judge" because we are clearly told in 1 Corinthians by the apostle Paul that the "spiritual judge all things" because we have "the mind of Christ" we can judge based upon God's word as He has revealed Himself to us. The Matthew 7 passage is telling us to realize that with the measure we judge, God will judge us. I does not mean that we can't be impartial judges if God's word is our guide. Which is my point...the majority of the laws of this country that we agree to abide by are based upon God's Word.

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  5. If we separate our nations government from the very foundations it was founded upon then we cease to be that nation!

    Our rights are only as secure as the authority by which they're granted.

    I have a "right to life" because God said "thou shalt not murder", NOT because some government said I could live.

    I have a "right to personal property" because God said "thou shalt not steal", NOT because some government said it was OK for me to own something.

    I have a right to "freedom of religion" because God said "thou shalt have no other gods before me", NOT because some government approved my beliefs.

    And on and on...

    Our "Bill of Rights" merely recognizes those rights that have their origin in God and by His authority. The Constitution simply lists our rights -- it does NOT grant them.

    If man can grant rights, man can take them away. If God grants our rights, only God can take them away.

    When people forget God, they forget the origin of their rights. They begin to look to the state as the grantor and keeper of their rights. When the state perceives this, it is quick to take hold of this power that the people have ceded to it. The state then often becomes one of the most hideous monsters known to mankind. People must not forget God or the fact that their rights come from Him. Government is simply God's tool for protecting and enforcing those rights -- it does not grant them.

    Alexis de Tocqueville in the nineteenth century said this after visiting America:

    "I sought for the greatness and genius of America in her commodious harbors and her ample rivers and it was not there; in her fertile fields and boundless forests and it was not there; in her rich mines and her vast commerce and it was not there; in her democratic Congress and her matchless Constitution and it was not there. Not until I went into the churches of America and heard her pulpits aflame with righteousness did I understand the secret of her genius and power. America is great because America is good, and if America ever ceases to be good, she will cease to be great."

    That goodness comes from God and living out the principles he has for us in His Word.

    You have to understand this is totally out of character for me...I usually don't even bother writing on things like this...I guess I feel like with all that's going on in this country and this world we need men leading that get it. I know you have a heart to lead and a passion for politics and hope God gives you a platform one day to stand for Him...and not just believe this stuff yourself but let it guide the leadership you give...our nation needs leaders that will follow His heart and not the agenda of man or culture...

    Thanks for reading and responding.

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  6. Tim, once again thank you for taking the time to reply to my blog entry. I noticed some of the arguments that you are making originated from an individual named David Barton - particularly the letter referenced from Thomas Jefferson to James Madison. Unfortunately, David Barton intentionally leaves out certain segments of the letter which argues against the point of Church having influence over the Government - but Tim - I am arguing that all of this is beside the point!

    We shouldn't even be interested, as Christians, in influencing the Government. We should be interested in influencing the hearts of our neighbors. By asking the Government to be the judge of our moral standard, we are alienating those who have yet to find Jesus. For this reason, attempting to claim the United States as a Christian Nation causes a divide between Christians and Non-Christians. This divide is dangerous, and is making it difficult for us to spread the message of God.

    Again - I have a lot that I want to say about what you wrote. They are all very good points, points that I respect. I enjoy the idea that we can have a discussion of these issues from a place of love and healing. Thank you very much.

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    1. "...attempting to claim the United States as a Christian Nation causes a divide between Christians and Non-Christians."

      There are plenty of Christians that also do not believe that we are a Christian nation. To say we were a Christian nation would mean that when we go to war, we do so in the name of Jesus and I can't think of anything worse than that. We have no right to claim this nation and all here deeds in the name of Jesus.

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    2. The United States is not Christian nation - I agree with you entirely. I do not want this nations troops to be deployed to a battle being fought for religious ideology. Unfortunately, reading the writings of George W. Bush and those of the CEO of Blackwater, the war in Iraq was indeed a war founded on religious ideology, and they even attributed Bible verses to their briefings of the war.

      This will be the topic of a blog post at a later date - but non-the-less, this is a true and real danger of claiming the United States a nation of God. This nation simply isn't worthy of that title - nor will any nation on this earth ever be.

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  7. Tim - While I'm analyzing, and trying to be sure that I understand what you wrote - I wanted to share with you a really good commentary on Mathew 7. One of the most important points that Mathew 7 makes is that even if we are right, know that we are right, and following the word; we as Christians are never to impose the truth on others.

    Here is the link:
    http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/commentaries/IVP-NT/Matt/Do-Not-Judge-Others

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  8. Still reading over what you wrote - looking up the verses you cited, and allowing what you are saying to sink in - but I noticed something very interesting in the verse you cited regarding Christians having the Mind of God:

    1 Corinthians 2:14 tells us (ESV): 14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

    This verse paints the picture quite clearly. Those who do not know God will not understand his Spirit, his teachings, and his laws. It is for this reason that when we attempt to use the Government as the arbiter of Christian moral standard, non-Christians turn away, believing that we are holding them accountable to spiritual doctrine they consider false, confusing, and inappropriate. This makes it very difficult for us as Christians to spread God's word - as we are actively alienating non-Christians by imposing the truth upon them by the Government.

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  9. Hey i looked at your commentary and it basically agrees with the point I was making...no where in the commentary that you sent does it say..." that even if we are right, know that we are right, and following the word; we as Christians are never to impose the truth on others." We are bearers of the truth and should always present the truth. You are right that 1 Corinthians passage say's that the natural person does not accept the things of God. The wisdom of God is "foolishness to those that are perishing" as the scripture says...but if they turn away from God and His truth it is not because we have been insensitive and alienating it will be because they see the Truth as foolishness. I think sometimes we put to much stock in our efforts to bring someone to Christ when the scripture is clear that no man will come to salvation "unless the Spirit draws him". Salvation is Christ's work not ours...we are merely called to proclaim it. I think what is truly DANGEROUS is when we say that our Christian beliefs don't belong in something as important as our nation and it's law. I'm loving the exchange but my head is spinning now...so I'm done for now...God bless bro...praying for you and your lovely family!

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    1. "We are bearers of the truth and should always present the truth."

      Wow! And in our self righteousness we shall rule the world.

      As if the scripture isn't wildly interpreted by many different religious groups. Which "truths" shall we choose? Catholics as they baptise their babies, Baptists for the full immersive effect or will just a little Methodist sprinkle do.

      Is Rick Santorum a Christian and is he going to heaven because he is a Catholic, or shall we declare him lost because "Ye must be born again?" Who has the truth? Gee I have no idea why this isn't more clear to us all so that we can all be in one accord.

      I would suggest that we just get on with the business as outlined in Matthew 25 and leave all this "ruling over stuff" to the world and follow the example of Jesus and start "serving under."

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  10. oh and who is I don't know who David Barton is...haha...but I will look him up now for sure.

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  11. Tim, I'm not trying to argue with you but the commentary's suggested interpretation of 7:6 is "Even When You Are Right, Do Not Impose the Truth on Others (7:6)".

    When I am quoting another person's ideas, I try my best to put it in my own words. Sorry if my translation may have confused my point.

    I'm almost done organizing my full thought. As someone who proclaims his faith in Christ - I want to be very careful about what information I put out on the web regarding Biblical teaching and doctrine.

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  12. I want to start on the other end of the spectrum. We are discussing how traditionally, the United States is a Christian Nation. There is no doubting the fact that Christians founded this nation, and that they used their Christian ideals to shape its laws and teachings. However, this isn’t where our focus as Christians should be. It is my opinion that the argument of the United States being a Christian Nation is a diversion from the Great Commission.

    Tim – I do have a heart for politics. I have this because I love other people, and I want to do what I can to serve. I see many places in Government for me to help those around me. But before I have a heart for politics, I have a heart for God, his people, and those who have yet to find him. Above all things, I want my life to be at the fullest service of Christ God, our Savior. Nothing is more important to me.

    For that reason, I reference scripture first and foremost when making decisions regarding what power a Christian should hold over others, and secular Governments (every nation on this Earth is secular, as the Kingdom of God is the only Christian Nation). I’m going to cover a lot of these scriptures in my next blog post (which will hopefully go out today), but I wanted to give you a bit of a sneak peak of what I will be discussing.

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  13. In 1 Corinthians 9:19 – 23 (ESV) Paul speaks of his freedom, and how he uses it to spread the Gospel:

    “For though I am free from all, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win more of them. To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law. To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law. To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. I do it for the sake of the gospel, that I may share with them in its blessings.”

    Paul begins this passage by stating that he is free from all – by this he is saying that he is free of any association outside of Christ. He is neither Gentile, nor Jew, nor does he belong to any nation – and has released himself from any secular affiliation. In doing so, he is free from the constraints and perspectives of the world. But, by this freedom, he has become a servant to all. He has charged himself with the responsibility of sharing the gospel to all who would hear it.

    Paul is saying that he will not allow anything to stand between the Gospel and those who have not found Jesus. He is saying that instead of imposing the truth on the Jews, those under the law, or the weak, he is becoming like them. He is humbling himself, and becoming a servant. By becoming like them, he is able to see the world through their perspective, better enabling him to spread the word of God.

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  14. When we as Christians attempt to impose the truth upon those who do not know God, we are forcing them to look through a viewpoint that they simply do not understand. As I discussed earlier, Matthew 7:6 is instructing us not to impose our doctrine on others. This is because, as Paul suggests in 1 Corinthians 2:14, “The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.” We cannot expect someone with a secular mindset to understand.

    You see Tim – I am a citizen of the Kingdom of God before I am a citizen of the United States of America. Never will these two nations be united in its aims and goals, and as such I will side with the Kingdom of God before the United States. Do you remember what Satan tempted Jesus with?

    Matthew 4:8-11 “Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. And he said to him, “All these I will give you, if you will fall down and worship me.” Then Jesus said to him, “Be gone, Satan! For it is written ‘You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.’ Then the devil left him, and behold, angels came and were ministering to him.”

    What Satan tempted Jesus with was the nations of the world. Jesus not once challenged Satan that the nations weren’t his to give. In fact, Jesus replied that it is written that we shall serve God and him only. This is both an acknowledgement that the nations of this world belong to the Devil, and that we as Christians should serve God, and him alone.

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  15. Remember, we are instructed by the Bible to live in the world, not of the world. This idea is truly described by the teachings of 2 Corinthians 10:3 (ESV) “For though we walk in the flesh, we are not waging war in the flesh.” We are not supposed to win hearts for Christ through worldly means. Instead, we are to approach the task as Jesus would – with Love.

    We are taught what love is in 1 Corinthians 13:4-8 (NIV), “Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, and always perseveres. Love never fails.”

    If you view the world through the lens of Christ-like love, I believe you will understand what I mean when I say that we shouldn’t be fighting for a Government, or a nation. Instead, we should be focused on sharing the gospel, and showing others what it means to really love. We cannot do that if our focus is of worldly things. We can only do this if our focus is God.

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  16. Again...I'm not interested in a long debate and nor am I try to argue. I think we have a vast difference of opinion on more than just political views but in interpretation of scripture. Paul WAS saying in the passage in 1 Corinthians 9 that he was free from any association other than Christ and he WAS saying that he has become all things to all people for the sake of the gospel. What he meant by that was that he reasoned with them based upon their culture and beliefs while still proclaiming the truth of Christ in love. I don't think that you are saying that we should not speak truth...or that by "becoming like them" that by any way Paul was compromising his beliefs or in any way being silent...What Paul was doing was much like reasoning with them based on their beliefs but never shaded or hide the truth. Look at Acts 17

    Paul in Athens

    16 Now while Paul was waiting for them at Athens, his spirit was provoked within him as he saw that the city was full of idols. 17 So he reasoned in the synagogue with the Jews and the devout persons, and in the marketplace every day with those who happened to be there. 18 Some of the Epicurean and Stoic philosophers also conversed with him. And some said, “What does this babbler wish to say?” Others said, “He seems to be a preacher of foreign divinities”—because he was preaching Jesus and the resurrection. 19 And they took him and brought him to the Areopagus, saying, “May we know what this new teaching is that you are presenting? 20 For you bring some strange things to our ears. We wish to know therefore what these things mean.” 21 Now all the Athenians and the foreigners who lived there would spend their time in nothing except telling or hearing something new.

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  17. 22 So Paul, standing in the midst of the Areopagus, said: “Men of Athens, I perceive that in every way you are very religious. 23 For as I passed along and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription, ‘To the unknown god.’ What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you. 24 The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man,3 25 nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything. 26 And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live yon all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, 27 that they should seek God, and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us, 28 for
    “‘In him we live and move and have our being’;4
    as even some of your own poets have said,
    “‘For we are indeed his offspring.’
    29 Being then God's offspring, we ought not to think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination of man. 30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but know he commands all people everywhere to repent, 31 because he has fixed ma day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.”

    Paul did love and become a servant to all...but he as you see did not shy away from the truth or even shy away from the idolatry that had become their culture and way of life.

    I agree with you that we are fighting for a kingdom not of this world and that we should never be more concerned with the United States of America than we are the Kingdom of God.

    But again I believe that God blesses people and nations that have hearts fully devoted to Him. I don't think you can ignore the fact that this nation even before the founding fathers from the Pilgrims..who believed that they were coming to further the kingdom of God has been established on the principles of God and His Kingdom...we are supposed to be "One nation under God".

    I just don't think you can separate the two. We agree on so much so again...I am not trying to be divisive just offering some food for though as I'm sure you are.

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  18. Thank you very much for this food for thought. It is a very interesting scripture. Let me compare this story with one about our commandments. Interestingly enough, earlier in this discussion you said that the Bible makes clear that we should never murder. The commandment which the Bible states so clearly is, "Thou shalt not Kill."

    However, immediately after Moses returns from the mountain, he finds his people worshiping idols. He was told by God to have them destroy their idols, and that if any held on to them, that his men were to go out into the camp and kill all who refused to destroy their idols. This included women, and children.

    To a secular mindset, this is not well understood - and in many ways is folly in their perspective. Even I struggle with interpreting the reasoning behind it; however thanks to an amazing Pastor, I now understand it.

    Your example of the people of Areopagus is very valid - however in that scripture never did Paul tell them to away their idols. Naturally, as the people of Areopagus grew to love God, he would give them the instruction to serve only God, and trust Jesus Christ as their savior. But this is only after they view the world outside the perspective of the Natural Man.

    Further, Paul never spent his time trying to inspire policy changes in any of these nations. The nations of which Paul traveled were far more tyrannical than anything we can imagine today. You and I don't know what it is like to be ruled by a tyrant. For that reason - we can count our citizenship in the United States as a blessing. We can also count Jesus and his Apostle's example of non-participation in the kingdoms of the world to be the example that we too should carry with us.

    As beautiful as it might be, we will never see the day when every citizen of the United States will profess Jesus as Lord and Savior to all. This is a sight that we will only see in Heaven. But in an effort to make a means to this goal, we need to approach our neighbor with love. I am almost finished with my blog post, I think it might be very revealing as to my mindset regarding how Christians are to respond to Government and those who have not found Jesus.

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  19. Oh, I think we have a mis-understanding as well. I will never tell someone that Abortion is a good decision. I will never tell someone that a marriage with a same-sex partner is pure in God's eyes.

    I will, however, never condemn them for it. I too am a sinner, and I struggle with sin daily. Further, I will never encourage the Government to burden them with my moral standards.

    I think you might be mis-interpreting what I am trying to say. Let me get done with this blog post, I really want to talk about this one particular scripture, but I am saving it for the blog post.

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  20. ok, I look forward to reading it and no I did not misunderstand you I understand clearly that you are opposed to those things... I just think we have a difference of opinion in carrying how those beliefs should translate into everyday life including government. I just get confused when people say that our beliefs should not be used to fight for a government or nation... like you said earlier....

    "If you view the world through the lens of Christ-like love, I believe you will understand what I mean when I say that we shouldn’t be fighting for a Government, or a nation. Instead, we should be focused on sharing the gospel, and showing others what it means to really love."

    if that's the case then why did God send the prophets to nations to give them a chance to turn their hearts back to Him. If our country and it's government are of no real consequence then why do you or anyone stand up for rights. If all that matters is the Kingdom of God and God himself does not want us as Christians to concern ourselves with "kingdom of the world" issues then why do we stand for anything? Just a thought.

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  21. The new Blog post is up! I'm not saying that we as Christians should have no place in Government. What I am saying, however, is that we as Christians should not claim the United States as a Christian Nation. We should have no interest in claiming the nation for God.

    Rick's posts above are very true regarding why we should not call this Country "God's Nation" or a "Nation of God." Further, I am saying that we should be more focused on affecting individual moral standards, and loving others; rather than influencing law to meet what Biblical Laws we think are most important.

    Why is it that we as Christians are trying to hold the Government responsible for its Citizen's individual Moral Standards? Christians are to be the arbiter's of moral standards, and we must hold one another accountable. But by asking the Government to enforce Biblical teaching, we are taking the responsibility out of our own hands - while distancing those who need Jesus from us.

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